Sondheim's 2011 "Legacy Project" video interview by Adam Guettel

[EricMontreal22]

Posted: 10/23/14 at 11:35pm

Has anyone else seen the 2011 Sondheim interview Adam Guettell did for The Legacy Project? There's about 5 minutes of it (or less) on youtube, but I just realized the university where I am doing my grad studies has access to a huge online grouping of videos for schools (including all of the Broadway Archive series,) and came across the full hour. Some fascinating stuff--he talks about how Hammerstein saw a gypsy run through of West Side Story and that at the time One Hand, One Heart was still the balcony scene number, and Oscar suggested they take the duet bit of the Tonight Quartet and first use it there. He also mentions how he helped Styne with Some People and a few other songs in Gypsy (by laying out the rhythm--he insists that people who think he actually composed some of the music are idiots.) and that when Hammerstein persuaded him to let Merman get applause after Rose's Turn neither he nor Jerry liked it but, he begrudgingly says, Arthur Laurence made it work with his revival with an idea they surprisingly never considered in the original production--which was to have her respond to the applause as if it were in her head.

It seems a shame if this is only available to schools, etc. One of the first times I've seen a Sondheim interview that didn't (just) recycle the same old stories.

[EricMontreal22]

Posted: 10/24/14 at 12:10am

The site will let me capture only some at a time as a transcript (I guess due to copyright reasons,) and the transcript makes them both sound like they, and the guy making the transcript, were on drugs, but....

Stephen Sondeheim An invited audience, and uh, and uh, Oscar was going away so he could do it. So we ran it for him, and the balcony scene was originally, what they sang on the balcony, was "One Hand One Heart", believe it or not, a song of limited passion, and, um, so he said, "ya know, you really need something that soars there." So what we did was, we took the, the quintet had been written, the, you know the, just before the rumble, and you know, "Tonight" is in there, and we decided to take "Tonight" out of the quintet and make it the base of the balcony scene and we expand it a little bit, and then used it as a reprise in the quintet which worked very nicely. I can remember that specific piece of advice, and then he came down to Philadelphia to see "Gypsy", and, uh, uh, Arthur and I had a, uh, a meal with him afterwards and he said, "I think it's wonderful but there are three things that I would suggest to improve. One..." And we eagerly listened, you know, thinkin' we're gonna, the first thing he said was, "The door knob on the kitchen set keeps falling off, that should be fixed. "Yes", I thought, "That what we really need's a smart ass." Right? Not at this point, cuz we knew somethin', somethin' was not happening right with the show, we knew that. And, he said, secondly, um, the scene where, in the Chinese restaurant, he said, "You should end that with 'You'll Never Get Away From Me', you shouldn't..." We had the song in the middle of the scene and there was dialogue afterwards. He said, "Generally, it's a good idea to end the scene with a song, particularly, that kind of scene, which is comic and romantic." Right? And then he said, and he looked at me and he said, "You're gonna kill me for this, but, you have to give a hand to Ethyl Merman at the end of Rosa's turn." I had written a high violin harmonic, uh, so, so that she would end screaming, "For me, for me, for me." And you'd hear in the orchestra this... and dead silence and then in the wings you hear Louise clapping, and he said, "You can't do that." I said, he said, "You have to put a big ending." I said, "But, but, she's having a nervous breakdown, you can't put a big end...." Ya know, everything you taught me, ya know, I got all worked up, he said, "Yeah, but the problem is, there's, uh, there are things that happen in the theater that you gotta take adva, take accou, take into account. One of them is that the audience is waiting to applaud.

Adam Guettel They wanna have a chance to.

Stephen Sondeheim Yeah, and to get the tension out. He said, "They are not listening to the last four pages of the play." And those are the most important four pages of the play, cuz that's where Rose becomes the mother and Gypsy becomes, uh, Rose becomes the daughter and Gypsy becomes the mother, and, if you give her a hand, they will, and sure enough, we gave her a hand, which is still, as far as I can say, completely false, well, it's not completely false, uh, cuz, now, Arthur, which we didn't think of at the time, Arthur now is changed the ending so that she gets a hand but it's in her head and she's having a fantasy about receiving an ovation, so it really works very nicely. But, the audience was dead silent for the last three pages, and they really listened and then...

Adam Guettel Well, and you also accomplished what you wanted harmonically cuz you had that lovely flat nine grinding away before the final...

Stephen Sondeheim Yeah, yeah, yeah, I insisted on that.

Adam Guettel Yes.

Stephen Sondeheim J, J, Jule was not too happy with that.

Adam Guettel Now you said, just now, "you had written", so, to what extent were you, not to, not to...

Jule Styne Composer, Gypsy

Stephen Sondeheim Oh oh, no, I, I, there are moments in, in, in, the music of "Gypsy" that I, ya know, that I either sketched out or, um, what I used to do with, with, Jule is, um, I would write out the rhythms and the rise and fall. Um, uh, uh, for example, I remember writing "Some People" and going "Some people tend to" cuz I had read that Cole Porter used to do that. That he would write , "It was just one of those things", with the duration of the notes but no pictures.

Adam Guettel Sort of a Morse code, proportion.

Stephen Sondeheim Exactly, and then he would pick his tune. I thought, "That's really smart." And that's why his words, uh, fits, (crosstalk)sits so well on the music. And um I thought, you know, this is a good thing to do. So, when I wrote some people dry and I, uh, I took the first eight, and, uh, first eight bars, first section, and uh, and sketched them out that way...

Adam Guettel Mm-hmm.

Stephen Sondeheim ...and then, then Jule picked the pitches. "
Adam Guettel Yeah.

Stephen Sondeheim And and and shaped the melody. But I did that a lot with Jule and he liked that, he liked that.

Adam Guettel I would have to say that, almost all of your work, feels as if it has been generated, uh, using that technique, insofar as it hues very closely to speech.

Stephen Sondeheim Yeah, yeah.

Adam Guettel Which makes it memorable and contemporary.

Stephen Sondeheim I believe in, ya know, there are different was to write songs and that's the, I happen to like conve
9 mins · Like
Eric Henwood-Greer Stephen Sondeheim I believe in, ya know, there are different was to write songs and that's the, I happen to like conversational songs. Uh, Beshevlove who I worked with on "Forum", said, "Ya know, there are other ways to write songs like that (ph)." But that's the way I like to write 'em, and I, and it's partly an imitation of Oscar although Oscar did a lot of, not melodramatic writing but you know, he would draw out a word, you know whoooooo stole my heart away? So he did, he didn't always, he, he, he, there was something more traditional about the song writing, qua song writing that he did.

Adam Guettel Was there anything about Oscar, uh, Oscar that you knew you didn't want to emulate in his work?

Stephen Sondeheim Not until I got older, not until I had my Oedipal moment. It was Oscar himself who said when I first started to write lyrics, he said, you're writing like me, you're imitating me. You're talking about nature and things like that, you don't believe in those things. He said, "Write what you believe." And then he said something, uh, very telling, he said, "Write what you believe and you'll be 99% ahead of the game.

Adam Guettel Mmm.

Stephen Sondeheim And I think he may even have said 99% ahead of everybody else, and as, soon as, he put it in those competitive terms, I thought, right, and from that point on, I never used his kind of imagery again, and his kind of imagery often embarrasses me, ya know, there's a lot about Oscar's lyrics that, ya know, I find wet and embarrassing, ya know. His ornithological obsession, ya know, the fact that there is a bird in every single lyric that he's ever written. If it's not a lark, it's a, it's a, willow. It's a, it's a, it's a hummingbird, it's a, uh, uh, (crosstalk)just ya know, that kind of nature imagery, makes, makes me, makes me cringe.

Adam Guettel Does it feel gratuitous, or unhelpful to the furthering of character and so forth?

Stephen Sondeheim Yeah, uh, what it is, is, I don't believe that people talk that way, and, you know, Oscar's, Oscar's lyrics, which sit conversationally are so full of his kind of imagery that you think that everybody, in all of his shows, are nature lovers. You know, they all sound alike, uh, they're always talkin' about willow trees and birds and, um, and, and, and, rivers, um, and it gives them a sameness and a softness, and what was interesting is when he av, when he tried to avoid that, as he did in "Me & Juliet", it's completely unconvincing. You know, you listen to lyrics of "Me & Juliet" and you'd swear to guy, uh, swear to God this guy has never been backstage. It, I, it, that's just not the way people in shows, kids in shows, talk, kids meaning, performers. It's like, and of course, he didn't get to know those people because he was

[EricMontreal22]

Posted: 10/24/14 at 12:28am

it's completely unconvincing. You know, you listen to lyrics of "Me & Juliet" and you'd swear to guy, uh, swear to God this guy has never been backstage. It, I, it, that's just not the way people in shows, kids in shows, talk, kids meaning, performers. It's like, and of course, he didn't get to know those people because he was management, and he was, I got to know uh, the, performers in shows because when we'd do West Side Story I was the same age as, as the performers.

Adam Guettel Yeah. When do you, if you remember a moment like this, think that you recognized in yourself, that you had your own voice?

George Furth Book Writer, Company and Merrily We Roll Along

Stephen Sondeheim Mmm. "Company" probably. Actually, it started with "Forum" because, I, "Forum" shows off the smart ass side of me and I was, I was, ya know, the clever side. Uh, I recognized that I was, I was, being clever in my own way, not in a Cole Porter way, not in a Frank Lester way, and um, so that, but I could feel with "Company" that, uh, it was probably cuz the subject matter. Ya know, George picked us up, Furth, picked a subject matter, that I, a world that I understood.

Adam Guettel Mmm.

Stephen Sondeheim Ya know? I understand the world of "The Ladies Who Lunch" cuz I grew up in it.

Adam Guettel Mm-hmm.

George Furth

Stephen Sondeheim So I was completely, as opposed to "West Side", "Gypsy", those were, those were, uh atmospheres that I had to get into through, through, through, (crosstalk) the labradas. Ya know, well first of all, George Furth always based his characters on real people, and there is a real life model for everybody in "company", and, I, some of them I knew and some I didn't.

Adam Guettel Mm-hmm.

Stephen Sondeheim But, uh, so, so, in a way we were writing about people he and, and, and, if I didn't know 'em then he would tell me about em.

Adam Guettel Mm-hmm, that's what it feels like.

Stephen Sondeheim He would tell me about them.

Adam Guettel Has, have you had that again, ever, in the same way?

Stephen Sondeheim Mmm, no, not real, well yes, in "Merrily We Roll Along", uh, the, the, the, song "Opening Doors", I, there're really only two, uh, consciously, uh, autobiographical songs I've ever written. Once is, um, "Good Thing Going", not the song itself, but the circumstance of singing at a party, and then everybody says, "Oh, oh, it's, I, oh, play it again." And they all start talking while you're playing, and drinking and completely ignoring you, having stuck you there at the piano, and that, that's, autobiographical and then the whole sequence of "Opening Doors", for just (ph) two years, takes place over period of two years in New York for these two songs writers and this other writer, the, the, girl who's their best friend is uh, in, not in specifics, but in em, it's emotionally autobiographical and its outline of, of, event is Hal Prince and your mother and me...

[NoName3]

Posted: 10/24/14 at 12:39am

Fascinating, Eric, thanks!

[EricMontreal22]

Posted: 10/24/14 at 12:54am

Stephen Sondeheim Mmm, no, not real, well yes, in "Merrily We Roll Along", uh, the, the, the, song "Opening Doors", I, there're really only two, uh, consciously, uh, autobiographical songs I've ever written. Once is, um, "Good Thing Going", not the song itself, but the circumstance of singing at a party, and then everybody says, "Oh, oh, it's, I, oh, play it again." And they all start talking while you're playing, and drinking and completely ignoring you, having stuck you there at the piano, and that, that's, autobiographical and then the whole sequence of "Opening Doors", for just (ph) two years, takes place over period of two years in New York for these two songs writers and this other writer, the, the, girl who's their best friend is uh, in, not in specifics, but in em, it's emotionally autobiographical and its outline of, of, event is Hal Prince and your mother and me...

Adam Guettel Hmm.

Stephen Sondeheim It's very, very much the, cause, ya know, your mother was hustling for jobs just the way I was and Hal already was a successful producer but we were all, "Hey, it's show biz." It couldn't wait, ya know, it's the whole thing of seeing every show, and talking about every show and our lives were, and then writing, and knocking on producer's doors, and all that was really fun and really frenetic and that, that number is, that's, that's closest (crosstalk)to, to, uh, to anything I've written that, that's, really autobiographical.

Adam Guettel On a professional level, you've had long relationships with, and I'm sure there are more but these are the people who, uh, come immediately to mind, Hal Prince, Paul Gemignani.

Stephen Sondeheim Yeah.

Adam Guettel Uh, Jonathon Tunic...

Stephen Sondeheim Mm-hmm.

Adam Guettel James Lapine...

Stephen Sondeheim Mm-hmm.

Adam Guettel Um, to some extent George Furth.

Stephen Sondeheim Oh yeah, the, the (ph)these are all collaborators, yeah.

Adam Guettel And, and, why, why did you keep going back to them?

Stephen Sondeheim Oh, goodness. Don't you work with the same people over there? (ph)You work with Ted Sperling a lot for example don't you?

Adam Guettel Yes, I mean, I do, uh, but, I...

Stephen Sondeheim But is it because you have a language with him and?

Adam Guettel Ya know, I would say that, uh, and I regret this and it could be partly my fault but the, there, isn't as fertile a community, uh, (crosstalk)for the theater now.

Stephen Sondeheim Well, also you haven't done as many shows. That's another thing too.

Adam Guettel That's, that's also really true.

James Lapine

John Weidman Book Writer: Pacific Overtures, Assassins, and Road Show

Stephen Sondeheim Ya know, cuz there was a period there where we were turning out a show a year, ya know, or a show every two years. And, um, no, I, it's because A. They're the best in their professions and B. you're working with people, um, you feel comfortable with. I mean, I, it was, it was, it was a real wrench (ph), and a, but a wonderful one. My life changed when I started working with Lapine because, for the first time, I was working with a whole other generation. I was working with, uh, ya know, a little older than you and a lot younger than me and, ya know, and, and, James represented a whole new way of looking at the theater and a whole way of playwriting, uh, that was nowhere near as conservative as what I'd come from, as my background, uh, but then over a period of time of course I I got I I loved working with him and got used to working with him. But otherwise, it really has to do with people who have similar tastes. I suppose you could make out a case that in a way it stultifies you. I don't think it stultified me but, maybe there's a case. Maybe, maybe, maybe, I would've turned out more interesting, or even more work, if I'd, if I'd, uh, uh, uh, worked with different people all the way along. (crosstalk)I can't, I can't tell, these are, but, you know, getting a room(ph) with John Weidman, or Lapine, right away I wanna write, ya know, (crosstalk)I don't have to suss them out, I don't have to, I don't have to, I certainly never have to sensor myself. Ya know, I can, I don't mind saying stupid things in front of them.

Adam Guettel Would you just, would you describe the, uh, the shift to Lapine and Weidman as, uh, in a way, a break from a certain linearity that you had learned from Oscar that you were (crosstalk)steeped (ph)in?

John Guare

Leonard Melfi

Lanford Wilson

Edward Albee

Stephen Sondeheim Yes, well, certainly with Lapine, absolutely, uh, cuz Lapine's generation of playwrights, ya know, uh, well, it actually started in the sixties with the whole, that whole, group of playwrights of, of, of, let's say, John Guare and, uh, uh, uh, his colleagues at the time, Leonard Melfi and, uh, Lanford Wilson, I was, a lot of people, um, and certainly Albee. They were, they were, bending the rules so to speak. It was a whole new way of thinking. Although, I've always been, as you know, uh, attracted to experimental storytelling, ever since I was 17 and Oscar made me a gopher on "Allegro". Cuz "Allegro" was a real attempt to do exactly what, what, happened many, it's quite prophetic, uh, what happened in the sixties, ya know, which is, find a way of utilizing, ya know, minimal scenery, and letting the audience's imagination work and the epic idea, just the way, "Our Town" takes place over a period of years and shows growing up and, uh, so that's what...

Adam Guettel Do you, do you feel, that, that's as, as, as, effective?

Stephen Sondeheim Oh, by far. (ph)First of all, yeah, I think that anything that engages the audience's imagination, (crosstalk)is, certainly that's the way I feel as, as, a theater goer. I mean, I love, I love naturalistic theater, but I, uh, in musicals I really want, I want things to be completely surprising.

Adam Guettel Mm-hmm.

Peter Shaffer Author: Amadeus, Equus, Royal Hunt of the Sun

Stephen Sondeheim Uh, Peter Shaffer, I, I, remember I went to a play once with him and, uh, there were, uh, two rapes, a fire, a murder, um, I think some incest, I can't remember, (crosstalk)and at the end of the first, and that's all my kind of stuff, and at the end of the first act I said, "Why am I so bored?" And I said, "Is it the writing?" He said, "No." He said, "There's no surprise." (crosstalk)and I thought, "Oh, I get it, I get it." And surprise is the element of, of, the theater that I like the best, and of movies too. But it's, it's, uh, the theater's more full of surprises because you can do so much with just, as I say, turning on a light and su-suddenly there's a person over there.

Adam Guettel What's the most satisfying surprise you've ever had a hand in?

Stephen Sondeheim Oh, had a hand in?

Adam Guettel In your work.

Stephen Sondeheim Oh, uh, the change in the follies at the, at the, climax of, of, "Follies"...

Adam Guettel Hmm.

Stephen Sondeheim When, when, you've been sitting there, in, in an hour and a half of gloomy, Boris Aronson rubble, and suddenly in a, in a, most magical 45 seconds, the stage is transformed, jaw droopingly, into the most beautiful elaborate wedding cake extravaganza with uh, I, I, to this day, I think of that moment.

Adam Guettel Mm-hmm.

Stephen Sondeheim That's what the theaters about. That's worth the price of admission.

Adam Guettel Let's just circle back for one second, uh, for one more thing to, to, the early part of your, uh, growth, um, what did you listen to 1,000,000 times when you were 14?

Maurice Ravel

Igor Stravinsky

Benjamin Britten

Stephen Sondeheim Uh gosh, uh, it wasn't, so I, I, I, ya know, I listened to concert music. Um, if I listened to songs, no, what I did was, I would buy the sheet music of the new shows and play, play them over, I don't think I listened to any song over and over again, there were certain composers I was, I was, drawn too. But I think the pieces of music I listened to were the, the the, ya know, the, the, post romantic Ravel particularly, (crosstalk)virtually everything he wrote, and a lot of Stravinsky and, um, when I got to know him, Benjamin Britten, the, uh, the instrumental pieces, not the operas...

Adam Guettel Hmm.

Sergei Rachmaninoff

Stephen Sondeheim cause I'm not an opera fan, Rachmaninoff.

Adam Guettel Mm-hmm.

Stephen Sondeheim Rachmaninoff, over and over again.

Adam Guettel The most country (ph) romantic...

Stephen Sondeheim Have you ever been invited to Desert Island Disks? You probably haven't been in England long enough. It's fun, ya know, but you get eight, you get eight records, but you're allowed to take to the desert island and, uh, and, it's very interesting, you, if you were asked to do that and now you've, you, have to commit yourself. Now it can be any kind of music...

Adam Guettel Yeah.

Stephen Sondeheim It could be a score of a show, it could be a single piano piece.

Adam Guettel Mm-hmm.

Stephen Sondeheim It could be anything, but you gotta pick the eight pieces.

Adam Guettel And you've done this?

Stephen Sondeheim Oh yeah, I've done it twice. (crosstalk)

Adam Guettel What were, your, what was your last eight?

Stephen Sondeheim Oh gosh, it's about 15 years ago, um, it's always "Porgy & Bess" is always there.

Adam Guettel Mm-mm.

Johannes Brahms

Stephen Sondeheim And it's always the Brahms' second piano concerto and, uh, there's always a Rachmaninoff piece, there's always a Ravel piece, oh, the, rhapsody on 3 with Paganini and um, probably the Ravel left hand piano concerto, that's because I've, I, I'm a big piano concerto fan and I wrote my junior thesis on the, the, revel left hand. What about you? Just off the top of your head, if, if you had to pick some uh, doesn't, you don't have to pick eight.

Adam Guettel Well, uh, uh, Stevie Wonder's "Inner Vision"...

Stephen Sondeheim My God, don't even know it.

Adam Guettel Um, it's a wonderful record. There'd be a number of, of, Ravel things, like, um, I think Stravinsky's also on the list, L'ouise Sois odwall (ph)would be on the list, um, Firebird certainly because it's so extraordinarily beautiful, um, which brings me to something about phrasing, but I know I'm supposed to answer the rest of this, (crosstalk)I mean, I don't, I don't want to be demure but I'd have to say that Sweeny Todd would be there, and "Company". Uh...

Stephen Sondeheim Well, good, thanks that's a compliment.

Adam Guettel I think there was something I heard on a subway once when I was Paris, when I was 16. This guy came out of the subway playing a clarinet, um, and not in a way that you kinda went, "oh God", uh, it was just, enchant, it was about three in the morning and he came on the subway and started playing something that had, something of you in it actually, but it was, Ba Da Be Ah Da Dee doom Boo Do Dee Ah Da Do doom and then it did Dee Da Da Da Dee BoDoodle Do Ya Ba...

Stephen Sondeheim Really?

Adam Guettel It did that.

Stephen Sondeheim I wonder what (crosstalk)he wasn't amalgamating?

Adam Guettel And I, (crosstalk)and I, I may have confl, I may have conflated it in my mind but I remember him jumping from seat to seat.

Stephen Sondeheim He may have been adlibbing.

Adam Guettel He might have been.

Stephen Sondeheim Yeah, may have been not a. (crosstalk)

Adam Guettel He may have known I was a fan.

Stephen Sondeheim Ah.

Adam Guettel Who knows. When you, when your, uh, when you know what a song, uh, where a song is meant to be, and what it's meant to do, does that mean that you already have a purchase on how to approach it? Does it, does it, coalesce slowly?

Stephen Sondeheim Yeah, almost always, almost always. Oh, but that, in a, in a, dialogue with a book writer, which is where all these things come up, if I get an idea, it's because I have a real idea, I can get to that thing, I'm sure you get it too, where you, you, actually see the whole thing but you don't, you don't see any of the details, just, you know what it's gonna be. You know what it's gonna feel like. You sorta know where it's gonna begin and end. It, it, um, doesn't always happen, sometimes, you, you, just start with a thread and you have to work it out. I don't know how much you talk with your book writer before you write, I talk extensively. I mean, really, extensively, and, um, uh, and, uh, you know, first of all, wanted to get to know what the characters are like, and secondly, how songs can help the show as opposed to hinder to it. Cuz that, that's the hard part is, you really have to, I, I've, it's always illusive, should this be a musical or not...

Adam Guettel Mm-hmm.

Stephen Sondeheim or should it be a play?

Adam Guettel Mm-hmm.

Stephen Sondeheim Ya know.

Adam Guettel Well, I often do (ph), I guess a rubbing, um, you know when people, uh, put paper, uh, over a tombstone...

Stephen Sondeheim Yeah, yeah, rub, rub, yeah.

Adam Guettel I sorta doing a rubbing over the story and see where the, (crosstalk)where the heat is, where things feel like they should be songs.

Stephen Sondeheim Yes, I know. Yes, you can do that, you could do that. But, then, don't you, don't you discuss the particular, you say, "listen, I have a feeling that this scene, when she, when she, sees him the first time, that there should be a song there. I don't know whether it's his or hers, but there should, maybe it's a duet...

Adam Guettel Yes.

Stephen Sondeheim I mean and then by talking to the, the, book writer will say, "Well, ya know, the impulse in the scene, you see, I think he should discover about her but not 'til later. Blah blah blah. You know?

Adam Guettel Right. Do you have a feeling in your gut, just an emotional signature, about a song? About a situation and a character in a situation that happens first?

Stephen Sondeheim No, usually, well, my instinct to answer that is no, but, what, occurs first is the tone of the song.

Adam Guettel Hmm.

Stephen Sondeheim Uh, and that has everything to do with comic tone to whether it's gonna be terse or whether it's gonna be verbose or whether it's gonna be hysterical or whether it's gonna be fast or slow, uh, as opposed, and I think it's because, I don't have to think long about what the emotion's gonna be once you spot it. It's as you say, if you take the rubbing and it come, and something comes out at you, it's because what, what would come out at me is the emotional core of it.

Adam Guettel Mm-hmm.

Stephen Sondeheim Now, how do you treat that emotional core? You know.

Adam Guettel So does that lead to, sitting at the piano, improvising, in concert or in, in the context of that emotional sense of it?

Stephen Sondeheim Yes, I, uh, quite often what will happen is I will let the, uh, uh, ask the book writer to write into the scene or maybe even the whole scene first. Or, if I know, for example, um, the first song, in sunny pop!? With George, um, we knew that we wanted to introduce the relationship between Dot and George and since the scene was that he, that she, was posing for him, it became clear that either he was going to sing an internal monologue or that she was going to sing an internal monologue and it seemed to be her moment because he should be concentrating entirely, he shouldn't be having thoughts about, "Oh, this is what I think about her", ya know, he's, he's trying to say that line, ya know, and so, knowing that it was going to be her, then, what, what, what, determines the song is the fact that it's, that it's, July, or hot, it's a hot day, and she's in a heavy dress, and right away, you got half your song written.

Adam Guettel Hmm.

Stephen Sondeheim Because the situation is so specific. Then, knowing that she's in a hot dress, in a heavy dress, on a hot day, you know she's gonna be ill tempered and if you know she's gonna be ill tempered, right aw, so it all channels right away. And since, we wanted, since we didn't want her to be just a fetch, she's gotta have a sense of humor about it, so, knowing all this, I said to James, "Can you write a monologue about this?" and that's what he did,

Adam Guettel Mm-hmm.

Stephen Sondeheim and then I took the monologue and (crosstalk)changed it into a song, but, it came back.

Adam Guettel And fashioned it into.

Stephen Sondeheim But that's exactly the way I would approach some, it's, ya, you're 80% ahead of the game as you know it, if you have the situation that is juicy enough to sing about.

Adam Guettel Mm-hmm.

Stephen Sondeheim as opposed to just two people meeting, ya know, and, um, and so generally, I, I, go for those moments and often ask the, since they are specific moments, the libratus, can write that moment, cause it's very specific, and it's part of the scene anyway, so, I, I, always, I, I, always try to get libratus to do the hard work.

Johnny Mercer

Adam Guettel There's something that I've often used when I teach, uh, that I think is attributed to Johnny Mercer. He was asked, "What's the most important thing about a song?" Um, Johnny Mercer's happens to be one of my favorite people of all time, and uh, he said, "The title." And the interviewer said, "You mean it has to have a catchy title?" and he says, "Well, yes, but, the title is often the bicycle of the song." And the guy said, "What's that", and he said, "it's the insighting idea, it's the idea that generates the rest of the song." I can think of a, I mean, so many examples from your work, where it feels as if a song has been generated that way.

Stephen Sondeheim I suppose I feel that, it's, just slightly different, which is that, the title is the summation of what you wanna say and it is often useful to start with a pithy, with, with, with, the essence of the song in a phrase, or even a word. But, that doesn't always happen. Uh, sometimes, particularly with the more discursive songs, you find yourself writing, and then you'll hit on a line and say, "Ah" and that will be, you know, what you decide as a refrain line. I'm trying to think of examples from my own stuff, walking down the street with Arthur, we're trying to think of, of, what Ethel Mermen's, the character of Rose, should sing for her first song, uh, when she's in the kitchen with her father and she's yelling at him and trying to get money from him. And I was having a lot of trouble. I remember walking between 57th, 56th street on Park Avenue, having left Jules Styne's apartment and I was talking, he said, "you know, well, what she's saying is that some people can..." I said, "I'll talk to you later."

Adam Guettel Some people.

Stephen Sondeheim He did not finish the sentence, he just said, "Some people can", and I thought, "Some people".

Adam Guettel "Sorry Grateful" might be an example (crosstalk)of a bicycle.

Beth Howland & Dean Jones

Stephen Sondeheim Yeah, that comes from a conversation with your mother. Since I'd never been married and I never lived with anybody, I got your mother down here who was about, just having embarked on her second marriage, and I took out a yellow pad and I said, "Tell me everything you know about marriage." And we sat in this room and two hours later I had most of the score of "Company" written, I mean, in the sense that she told me everything, and I remember, somehow, in that, I remember writing the phrase, "Sorry, grateful". I don't think came out of her mouth, but she was describing, ya know, the obvious things, the difficulties and, and, the combination of loneliness and non-loneliness...

Adam Guettel Right.

Stephen Sondeheim ...and all that, you know, and so that was a dis-distillation of her, distillation of her experience.

Adam Guettel Having just gotten married myself I should probably have that conversation with her.

Stephen Sondeheim Oh it's a little too soon. I mean (ph) cuz she was on her second marriage. That was very important.

Adam Guettel Yeah Yeah.

Stephen Sondeheim She had a way of contrasting.

Adam Guettel Mmm.

Stephen Sondeheim You know, two different guys, two different tones, two different everything's.

Adam Guettel You mostly write at the piano?

Stephen Sondeheim Ah. Mmm. I try not to. Uh, I, I, I, do write at the piano, but as the years have gone by I try to stay away from the piano more because you get limited by your own technique.

Adam Guettel Muscle memory?

Stephen Sondeheim Yeah, and what I will do, and I wonder if you do the same thing is, I'll deliberately play in a key that I haven't written in in a long time. Particularly the sharp keys, as we all know, for some reason, are so much harder than the flat keys.

Adam Guettel I always write in sharp keys.

Stephen Sondeheim Oh god you do?

Adam Guettel But, it's cuz it's easier for my fingers. I mean, I, and I, get ninth-itus (crosstalk)and tenth-itus.

Stephen Sondeheim That's very interesting cuz, mmm, flat keys are much easier, I have little pig hands so, it may have to do with the size of your hands. I, I can't, I can't, do walking tenths. (crosstalk)I just can't do it.

Adam Guettel They're not that small. Well (crosstalk)

Stephen Sondeheim Hello.

Adam Guettel At least I exceed you in some ways.

Stephen Sondeheim Look, look, look at that.

Adam Guettel There we go.

Stephen Sondeheim Leonard Bernstein

Stephen Sondeheim Oh oh oh oh, but no I, I, I have trouble. The piano I work on, incidentally, was, um, a result of, of, of, knowing Lenny, Leonard Bernstein from "West Side Story". He had given, um, children's concerts on this piano, I think seven times, and then he decided he needed a larger piano. This is a, a, a, this is a, not a nine footer.

Adam Guettel This is a Steinway?

Stephen Sondeheim No, it's a Baldwin, a Baldwin.

Adam Guettel A Baldwin.

Stephen Sondeheim He was a Baldwin, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh man and he...

Adam Guettel I've never heard of a good Baldwin. (ph)

Stephen Sondeheim (crosstalk) and he, signed the Baldwin, I mean, you know, he, and um, and he said, uh, cause I couldn't afford a grand piano and he said, "I'll get you one, get you one, uh, at cost." And he said, "and you can pay, pay, for it in installments and, uh...

Adam Guettel Can we see it?

Stephen Sondeheim Sure. Sure.

[music]

Adam Guettel So this is, this is the famous, uh...

Stephen Sondeheim Yeah.

Adam Guettel Famous (crosstalk)instrument.

Stephen Sondeheim This is the piano that Lenny, uh, Lenny got for me after he had, uh, after he had used it seven times for children's (crosstalk) concerts.

Adam Guettel A great Baldwin is a great piano.

Stephen Sondeheim Well, what's great is, it's mellow. When, I got a huge prize of money, about 20 years ago, and I thought, I'll get a Steinway.

Adam Guettel Yeah

Stephen Sondeheim And I went down to the Steinway place and, I'm not picky about pianos, but there was one piano that I thought sounded better than the others...

Adam Guettel Mmm

Stephen Sondeheim and they said, "Oh, Mr. Sondeheim, your taste is so terrific, this is the only Hamburg Steinway (crosstalk)in the place, blah blah blah, so we got to the country, put it in the room and I started to play it...

Adam Guettel Way too bright.

Stephen Sondeheim and it started to scream at me.

Adam Guettel Yeah. Bright.

Stephen Sondeheim Nobody had told me, (crosstalk)and I had to send it back and lo, loseled (ph)me.

Adam Guettel Yeah, well, Baldwin's are darker, and, but this is a very beautiful Baldwin.

Stephen Sondeheim It's just nice and mellow and I can pound on it.

Adam Guettel Yeah, a real composer's action too. When you almost have to , Gah,

Stephen Sondeheim Yep.

Adam Guettel Have to lean in there.

Stephen Sondeheim God, I, I didn't know you played that many different kinds of pianos. There's some funny thing. That is writ, was, drawn by Larry Gelbart who just died last week, and that's me at the piano, which I think is just really, and that is odd, that is something he drew, it proselytized zero Mostel's (crosstalk)curtain call in "Forum", he sat on a bench just that way. But Larry, drew that two years before. And then these are, these are from Lenny, these, uh, the music manuscripts. Lenny used to just send vignettes, I guess you would call 'em. That's an Avignon photograph there, with the, jigsaw puzzle, it was done for a, for a magazine.

Adam Guettel So what's on your, what's on your music rack right now?

Stephen Sondeheim Uh, they're, they're things that I've promised I would proof that other people have written, that are variations on stuff I've, I've, written.

Adam Guettel Ah.

Stephen Sondeheim And then I got the Leonard Bernstein's 13 anniversaries, of which I am one, which I didn't have a copy of so I just got that.

Adam Guettel Ah.

Stephen Sondeheim And then there's a sketch of something I was writing about six months ago and abandoned, but it's still there to remind me to keep writing.

Adam Guettel When you write, you write, when you write things down you write by hand.

Stephen Sondeheim Oh yeah.

Adam Guettel And you don't get to the...

Stephen Sondeheim Oh no, I don't, no, I haven't learned the programs. No, no, I don't write the programs. But, I have a copyist, you know, so I, I, hand her the, I hand her the, the, handwritten manuscripts and then she translates them for now. (ph)

Adam Guettel Is it simply a matter of not wanting to, to learn the software, or...

Stephen Sondeheim Yeah.

Adam Guettel Is it, is it about process?

Stephen Sondeheim No. It's, it's both. I actually sometimes write at the computer a little bit. But, I said (ph), mostly I write by hand.

Adam Guettel And why would you write at the computer as opposed to this? What would be the advantages?

Stephen Sondeheim Oh, I'm not talking about, I'm not talking about the music, I meant lyrics. Lyrics I sometimes write.

Adam Guettel Oh, Oh I see.

Stephen Sondeheim No no, I never write anything at, uh, uh, uh, no, I don't want to learn, it's a long process to learn something like "Finale", and I think this is, in a certain way, quicker.

Adam Guettel Mm-hmm, yes.

Stephen Sondeheim And, if, ya know, if I didn't have a copyist, then of course...

Adam Guettel Yes.

Stephen Sondeheim I, I, think I would.

Adam Guettel I also think in the same way that we talked about muscle memory and sort of going where your hands want to go instead of where your theatrical mind wants to go, a computer can be the same way, it can sort of lead you into the same grooves. (crosstalk)Lead you into the same sorts of things over and over.

Stephen Sondeheim Do you write with "Finale"? Do you write at the computer?

Adam Guettel No, um, I write mostly at the piano, the guitar, bass...

Stephen Sondeheim But, I mean, you, uh, you notate with your hand?

Adam Guettel I don't do that either, I, I, actually notate into the computer but, I, not (crosstalk)until I've got something that's worth notating.

Stephen Sondeheim Ahh. Ah. And why is that easier or more...(crosstalk)

Adam Guettel I can't, I have the worst, uh, sort of, musical penmanship...(crosstalk)

Stephen Sondeheim But, but you could, you could afford a copyist or, particularly if you're doing a show, a producer pays for a copyist.

Adam Guettel I, I never did it for long enough, computers came along early enough for me.

Stephen Sondeheim Ah Okay.

Adam Guettel And I never got that quick, I mean, I used to look at my mother's manuscripts or my grandfather's and see they had this wonderful way of making notes that were just a slash and a stand, (crosstalk)a slash and a stand, a slash and a stand...

Stephen Sondeheim Yeah, I don't do that, I must say, I, I, actually write the notes.

Adam Guettel Yeah, you kinda, you've got a nice round thing going on there.

Stephen Sondeheim Sometimes. It, It's not as neat as it, as it, could be, but it's, but it's (crosstalk) my best preview ...(ph)

Adam Guettel It's legible.

Stephen Sondeheim It's, that's my German ancestry.

Adam Guettel Uh-huh. Do you keep, do you keep awards around or do they spook you?

Stephen Sondeheim I don't, those, ya know, that, I, uh, yes, I, uh, those are the pretty awards I've got. The reason they're there is, I think they're all nice looking objects. The others are, uh, in closets some place.

Adam Guettel Right.

Stephen Sondeheim Wanna sit down?

Adam Guettel Yeah, let's sit. We've gotten marks.

Stephen Sondeheim Yes, I noticed.

Adam Guettel At this stage of your career, with all the success you've had, uh, does that, uh, make you impregnable to the kind of fear that would keep you standing still?

Stephen Sondeheim Oh, Ya know, uh, uh, uh, uh, you get less confident as you get older, I'm sure you've heard this before, it's just, the more you know, the more you're frightened and, and also, when you build up a reputation and people are expecting things from you and...

Adam Guettel Yes.

Stephen Sondeheim Expect, well you know that yourself, that expectations make you very hesitant about doing anything else and it gets, and also, my energy level is going, and it's, I mean, it's all, the balloon is, is, collapsing, but that's the only that concerns me really.

Adam Guettel Mm-hmm.

Stephen Sondeheim However, (crosstalk)if you get into something that you're really interested in then that does disappear.

Adam Guettel Right, that stuff goes away.

Stephen Sondeheim But you have, really have to, and, and, it is, it is not, it's not that hard to get into it once you've found something to get into...

Adam Guettel Mm-hmm.

Stephen Sondeheim a know, but you have to find the thing.

Adam Guettel Right. And before that, it's, it's, pretty scary.

Stephen Sondeheim Yeah, it really is and makes you not want to write.

Richard Rodgers Adam's Grandfather

Adam Guettel My, my, grandfather used to call it the first olive out of the jar is the hardest, um...

Craig Lucas

Stephen Sondeheim Yeah. Well, that's why it's very good to have a collaborator, ya know, I, I, don't understand playwrights, I, I, don't understand how Jonathan sits down, all by himself, and forgive the vulgarity, gets it up, and enough, so over a period of time, he actually ends up with a play, we have people to nudge us, well, you don't with the, when you do a song cycle, that's different, but, when you're doing a show. You know, you've either got Craig Lucas to argue with, or whoever it is.

Adam Guettel Yes. That's preferable.

Stephen Sondeheim And I do not understand how playwright's do it. When you have a playwright who really knows the people he's created...

Adam Guettel Mm-hmm.

Stephen Sondeheim That's all you need. That, that, that, constant stimulus, I could never write anything by myself.

Adam Guettel Would you ever keep a list of things that you used to know, that you used to observe, that you may have forgotten, (crosstalk)that you might re, re, refer back, oh, gosh of course, there's that.

Stephen Sondeheim No. No. I think, I think, I think you do file it in your memory but I, do you, do you actually jot those down?

Adam Guettel I, I, don't have a list but I often realize that my biggest problem is that I forgot something I used to know and when I, when I, remember it, I fix the thing.

Stephen Sondeheim Gimme and example, what do you mean?

Adam Guettel Uh, well, something basic, like, we have to know what this person wants.

Stephen Sondeheim Ah.

Adam Guettel Uh, and, and, I'd be writing away associatively, thinking it's really terrific and ornate and delicious harmonically, and that has nowhere to go and doesn't go anywhere and dies.

Stephen Sondeheim And then you realize.

Adam Guettel Oh, well, we don't know what that person wants.

Stephen Sondeheim What's interesting, cuz, see, I never attack a song without asking those questions first. (crosstalk)That's what I mean by talking to, to, the Labratus' down in...

Adam Guettel Yeah.

Stephen Sondeheim I wanna know exactly what each scene is about, I, I, I've said, with, I think some truth that by the time a show goes in rehearsal, I know the script better than the labratus does because I've literally examined every single word, and why that character says that word, and if I don't know why, I call up, I say, "why does she say cat when she owns dogs, ya know?

Adam Guettel Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Stephen Sondeheim And he will either have an explanation or not.

Adam Guettel Is that because without that you can't compress it into song? (crosstalk)You can't create metaphors?

Stephen Sondeheim Well, no, ya know, if you're an actor, it's exact, I mean, come one, when, when, you write a lyric, you're acting, you're becoming an actor, and a good actor wants to know every reason for every author's intention (crosstalk)and then do what he or she wants to do with it. But you gotta know, why is that line there? Why do we skip that line? Why can't we go from there to there? And the playwright will say, "Because, she needs this transition in thought." Or blab blah whatever, or maybe, maybe he won't know, which case, you don't do the line. The same thing is true with creating characters, uh, uh, with interpreting the characters that the, that the labratus has created. You gotta know what each moment is. And once you do, then it becomes easier to write, easier, it becomes possible to write the song. But, You're, you're, you're describing a situation where you didn't discuss it thoroughly enough.

Adam Guettel Uh-huh.

Stephen Sondeheim And you've put all that effort (crosstalk)into this song.

Adam Guettel Yes.

Stephen Sondeheim Like I did with Crinoline, and find out, it's entirely wrong!

[music]

Sondeheim replaced "Crinoline" with "The Ladies Who Lunch" for Company

Stephen Sondeheim There's nothing wrong arou, about writing a bad song. There's something wrong about writing a wrong song. You mustn't waste your time writing a wrong song. It's okay to wr, waste your time writing a bad song.

Adam Guettel I don't know if that aphorism's gonna catch on, but I....(crosstalk)

Stephen Sondeheim But, but, it's okay to write a bad song.

Adam Guettel Yeah, yeah, right.

Stephen Sondeheim But it's not okay to write a wrong song. By, "okay", I mean, you've wasted your time.

Adam Guettel Yeah.

Stephen Sondeheim And sometimes you write a really good, wrong song.

Adam Guettel Uh-huh. These basic fundamental things, are did they constitute most of what you end up teaching when you teach?

Stephen Sondeheim Yeah. Yeah, all those. Ya know, I, I have, I have a mantra, um, which is, ya know, uh, consists of three principals, which is, content dictates form and style, less is more, and God is in the details, and I think if you, if you, pay attention to those three, you can't write bad. That's all you have to, it's so simple, I've often said, you know, you can teach lyric writing in five minutes. Just stick to those princ, they're just hard to stick to, that's all.

. Adam Guettel Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Stephen Sondeheim That's all you need to know. That's all you need to know, and economy is, you know, clarity is, above all, clarity is what it's about, as you know, it's clarity of diction, clarity of, you know, the words have gotta sit on the music in such a way, (crosstalk)that's right, and clarity of thought, make very clear to the audience, it can have mystery to it, but make very clear to the audience what you mean, and be sure that the character, that the, the, performer can, particularly when, when, when straight jacket (ph) to my music can get the words out, so that, I only need one listening and you get exactly. (crosstalk)

Adam Guettel You know exactly what they, who they are and what they do.

Stephen Sondeheim That's very hard to do, but if you do it, you can't write bad.

Adam Guettel Now, on a musical level, do you, do you, have, uh, the equivalent three, uh, three tenets?

Milton Babbit

Stephen Sondeheim Yes, absolutely, absolutely. First of all, I believe in util, utilizing. I got it, I got it from Steinwood Milton Babbit, what we did was, he wa, he was, a, a, a, a songwriter manque, or is, I should say, and so, for the first hour of our four hour sessions once a week we would, we would discuss and analyze DeSylva , Brown, and Henderson, who were his favorite and your grand pop and j, particularly, Jerome Kern, I mean, I could still give the lecture on all the things you are and what, how that is a unique musical composition, and what makes it work.

Adam Guettel Circle of fifths.

Stephen Sondeheim Circle, but, but also the tri-tone, circle, he breaks it, to go to a new key but it's also the tri tone that just finds the old key. Also, it never hits the tonic chord until the end. I mean, on and on, it's just great, but, he, we, we, analyzed the Bach Foo and I think it was his term, I, I would like to think I made it up, but I think he made it up, he said, "You see, he takes these four notes, referring to Bach, and he builds a cathedral out of them."

Adam Guettel Mmm.

Stephen Sondeheim Ah. And I had always appreciated Bach intellectually, but until we started analyzing what Bach was doing, it didn't get to my heart.

Adam Guettel Mm-hmm.

Stephen Sondeheim And now, I, I, you know, I cry at Bach.

Adam Guettel Yes..

Stephen Sondeheim But, it goes from here to here. It's certain kind of scores where you wanna hold a score together...

Adam Guettel Mm-hmm.

Stephen Sondeheim ...so it isn't just a group of disparate songs. What you do is you utilize as little material as possible and build on 'em. Vary it. You know, Sweeny Todd is built out of, out of about three or four themes.

Adam Guettel Mm-hmm.

Stephen Sondeheim Not all the songs, but most of 'em. It's not an opera. It's not completely through composed, but a lot of it is, and Merrily is, Merrily rolling is a show that exists on just that, on taking a theme and then making it the accompaniment, and taking the accompaniment and making that a theme, and making the release the main thing and, inverting, and everything, it's all about...

Adam Guettel Yeah.

Stephen Sondeheim What, manipulating things musically. And it isn't just an intellectual exercise, it gives a leanness. You have a feeling that those songs belong in that score and not in this score.

Adam Guettel Yeah, you're not breaking any of your own rules you created as well.

Stephen Sondeheim And it's not just style, it's the actual musical material. Just like clay, just like marble, and um...

Adam Guettel I think on a certain level, an audience, uh, sort of subcutaneously, know that.

Stephen Sondeheim Absolutely. Absolutely. I've always said, they will always, always get it subconsciously, always.

Adam Guettel "Sunday" would be another good exam, I'm think it's very tightly (ph)

Stephen Sondeheim Sunday is built on that opening arpeggio.

Adam Guettel Yeah.

Stephen Sondeheim The arpeggio implies two, two, major chords, a one and a four, and everything after that, not everything, but, most of the things, are built, then there's a little, dot dot dot dot dot dot dot dot (crosstalk), panic theme, then things are built out of that and then you know, move on, is a culmination of all the themes playing together at once.

Adam Guettel Yeah.

Stephen Sondeheim And, of course the audience doesn't get that, but I do know that one of the reasons that moment is moving is bec, you feel the entire evening has been building (crosstalk)to this moment, and when the themes come together, so do the hero and heroine.

Adam Guettel Mmm, mm-hmm.

Stephen Sondeheim And um, that's, I mean, that's the way ....

Adam Guettel Su, Sunday has some very stark examples of the fruit that can be born of really prolonging tension and release, you have, um, I mean, just in the song "Sunday" there's that delicious harmony, um, on the word "park".

Stephen Sondeheim Yeah.

Adam Guettel That's just, what a shoulder chord. Ahhh.

Stephen Sondeheim Now what is a shoulder chord?

Adam Guettel You know, Ahhh.

Stephen Sondeheim Ohh, that's a, that's a nice, that's a nice term, that's a nice term. Yeah. No, it's a, no, harmonically, well, of course, "Sunday" is ya know, is, is my, my Britten influence. Ya know, most of, most of the shows I write are my Rachmaninoff and Ravel influences.

Adam Guettel Mmm.

Stephen Sondeheim But "Sunday's" my Britain inference, and boy, ya know, it was with some Britten music. I'm, I'm gonna cry now, I just, he kills me.

Adam Guettel Mm-hmm. Have, have, have you had anything that you would consider to be, uh, a bonafide flop?

Stephen Sondeheim Well, a bonafide flop on an artistic and commercial level, only one, which was, "Pace, your grandfather, "Do I hear a waltz?"

Adam Guettel Mm-hmm.

Stephen Sondeheim And, for a very simple reason. It was a show that didn't need to be written.

Adam Guettel Mm-hmm.

Stephen Sondeheim It was, when Oscar was dying, he said, "Ya know, Dick is going to be very lonely when, when I'm goodnight (ph)wish, I know you wanna write your own music, but I wish you would consider writing it, I said, "Sure of course." And so your grandpop sent me a few, a couple of pieces of year, and finally, he, he, he and Oscar, were contemplating doing uh, as you may know, Tommy the Cuckoo, Arthur Lawrence said, who wrote the play, had asked me to introduce them to it, to, to, he asked me to introduce him to them and did, and he proposed it to them and Oscar said, "It's a good idea, but, uh, because the re, re, recent release of the movie "Summertime" which was Katherine Hepburn's movie version of Tommy the Cuckoo, I'd like to wait five years.

Adam Guettel Mmm.

Stephen Sondeheim And I said fine, well, within those five years, Oscar died, and so that was, a thing that Dick came to me with and because with Arthur, and I liked Arth, and I liked writing with Arthur so much, uh, I thought it would kill two birds with one stone, which is not the reason to write a show.

Adam Guettel Mm-hmm, no.

Stephen Sondeheim And I've often, it's an ugly metaphor, but I've often compared, uh, uh, uh, the show to a dead baby. It looks like a baby, and it's beautiful and all that, it just isn't alive.

Adam Guettel Yeah.

Stephen Sondeheim A better image would be, ya know, it's a plane that doesn't take off.

Adam Guettel Mm-hmm.

Stephen Sondeheim And, do I hear a waltz is not a bad show, it's a dead show.

Adam Guettel Mm-hmm.

Stephen Sondeheim And it's because there's no reason to write it. There's no passion around it.

Adam Guettel And that was sort of the cancer that, I mean that was the.(crosstalk)underneath everything.

Stephen Sondeheim Oh that was, (crosstalk)yeah, that was, that was really bad stuff on all grounds because Arthur himself didn't realize himself that his, Arthur's motive, was to make money, and you know, there's Dick Rodgers, the most successful composer, producer...

Adam Guettel Right.

Stephen Sondeheim ...in the theater and a show, a play that did work very well and it was a good play and easy to musicalize quote unquote and it was exactly why not to write a show.

Adam Guettel And also I think something else may have died in that five years, which was my grandfather's sense of who he was, as a composer.

Stephen Sondeheim That was, that was, the discouraging and shocking thing to me, was that he felt the well had run dry.

Adam Guettel Yeah.

Stephen Sondeheim I could not get him to re-write.

Adam Guettel You can hear that in the music.

Stephen Sondeheim I could not get him to re-write. He would write something, and I'd say, "Look, can we just work on the release a little bit." He couldn't do it, he had to write a whole new release, if, if anything, but, he resisted re-writing anything at all and I realized it wasn't me, it was himself.

Adam Guettel Mm-hmm.

Stephen Sondeheim He really was afraid that he'd wake up the next morning and have no ideas.

Adam Guettel Mm-hmm.

Stephen Sondeheim And maybe that was true or maybe not, but he had convinced himself of that.

Adam Guettel Yeah.

Lee Remick & Harry Guardino

Stephen Sondeheim And it made the collaboration, apart from, his, his, the personality problems he, he had, or I had with him, uh, that's what made it impossible. But, that's the only show I've written that I think, uh, because, the, the, the, big, the, the, flops, like "Anyone Can Whistle", which you know is a show written by the two smartest kids in the class from the back row, ya know, it's just, so condescending and smart ass, and smart at the same time. That's still, I'm glad I wrote it, I've no regrets having written it at all. Only "Do I Hear A Waltz?" I think was a waste of my life.

Adam Guettel Mm-hmm.

Stephen Sondeheim And um, uh, it was because, I like Arthur, and Dick wrote it for the wrong reason.

Adam Guettel Yeah.

Stephen Sondeheim I did it to pay Oscar's debt back and because I wanted to work with Arthur again, and also I, I thought that we could make money the way Arthur did, and blah blah blah.

Adam Guettel Well, yeah, it sounds, it sounds like, a, um, uh, uh, a medium to bad imitation of my grandfather's music and, and, uh, nobody was, it felt, it felt sort of..

Stephen Sondeheim Yeah, It just, it just...(crosstalk)

Adam Guettel It wasn't, no one was having fun there.

Stephen Sondeheim But you know, eh, uh, the, the, many of the scores he did with, with, Oscar, after King and I, are just not very good, they're not up to anything like his best, that includes "Sound of Music", uh, there's, there's a kind of plotting...

Adam Guettel Emphatic.

Stephen Sondeheim Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly, that, and I gotta get to work tomorrow morning, I gotta turn out a tune.

Adam Guettel Do you think that, that, writers, um, and even the best writers, uh, have a period of organic, the ability to be organically themselves, where they really are in their signature, and almost everyone seems to leave that period at some point, (crosstalk)that window seems to shut.

Stephen Sondeheim Well, I think that, that, that, because of the nature of theater music, meaning popular theater music, commercial theater music, as opposed to opera, that, um, we all become super annuated, I think, ya know, because music changes every 25 years, I think every generation, everybody becomes old fashioned. Um, I think Dick became old-fashioned and was aware of it. I feel old fashioned, uh, ya know, I have no relationship to rock or pop, which are, which is the coin or the realm. Uh, I think, I don't know any, I really don't know any composer, for the theater, whose written really good stuff after the age of 50.

Adam Guettel Mmm.

Stephen Sondeheim Which is a very young age.

Adam Guettel Mm-hmm.

Stephen Sondeheim But, that's a generation. They start when they're in their twenties and a generation later, (crosstalk)they're 50, and suddenly, you feel it, I, I've been able to avoid that somewhat, but, that's because I don't have, really, a style of my own. I'm, I, my style is so geared to different people. But, that's what happened when I worked with Lapine. Lapine infused me with something. It's possible, that if your grandfather, instead of writing with an old, old, conservative like me, had really allied himself with John Guare, it's conceivable he would've, cause he changed his style so much...

Adam Guettel Yes.

Stephen Sondeheim from, uh, uh, Hart to Hammerstein, he might very well of found that Guare's still hot (ph)(crosstalk)

Adam Guettel It might have happened again, yeah.

Stephen Sondeheim Yep (crosstalk)cuz God knows the talent was there.

Adam Guettel Mmm.

Stephen Sondeheim But how do you do that?

Adam Guettel Yeah.

Stephen Sondeheim How do you do that?

Adam Guettel It takes a lot of courage.

Stephen Sondeheim It really does, it really does.

Adam Guettel When you hit something that you just can't solve, in a room, on a show that you're feeling is going well, what do you, what do you do?

Stephen Sondeheim Call the collaborator, I'm sorry, there's no more interesting answer then that.

Adam Guettel If when, you're writing, you, sort of lay something down and think, "Well, ya know, I really wanna get to dinner, um, I really wanna leave town, that's gotta be, I think that's good enough, but there's that little inner voice that's sort of like, "That's not, that's not good enough." Do you think that that exists in everyone?

Stephen Sondeheim Uh, well it doesn't exist in me because I get, I get, dogged. I get dogged, but it's exactly like, again, solving a puzzle. I thought, I gotta, it does not occur to me to break the concen, unless it's, unless it's an obligation. If it's something I've got to go to, then I resent it and also I have that thing that I'm sure a lot of people have, which is, if you know you have to leave the house at six o'clock, you get a great idea at five minutes to six.

Adam Guettel Hmm. Right, it's just gonna have to happen. (crosstalk)

Stephen Sondeheim Ya, know that's perverse, and that happens to every writer.

Adam Guettel Right.

Stephen Sondeheim Uh, but, but, if it's not necessary, no, I stay with it until I get exhausted un, or, until I think, "I don't know what to do." And then I got to sleep. And I am a firm believer in all problems getting solved in dreams. I really believe that you wake up in the morning, and it's solved, or it's on its way to solution.

Adam Guettel Of all the, after all the success you've had, and, and, it's, uh, probably embarrassing for you to hear it, but you are so revered and so admired, not just for what you've, um, made, but also for how you've been to people. Um, um, that you've been generous about teaching, that you've been honest, and that you, um, have tried to be as helpful as you can be, and you've also had a lot of, uh, success on a sort of, more superficial level. Has that been, uh, a evil, as well as good? I mean, when you, uh, try to approach your work, is all that you've done and all that people expect from you, um, overwhelming?

Stephen Sondeheim Well, the expectations come from the work, not from the teaching. Teaching to me is the sacred profession and I cry when I talk about it, and I'll probably cry now. Uh, but my life was saved by teachers. Uh, first a Latin teacher in, in, um, uh, high school, and then, um, then, uh, Oscar Hammerstein, who was a teacher, and who, who, um, just before he died, gave me, a portrait of himself, and I asked him to inscribe it, which is weird when you think that, you know, it's like asking your father to inscribe something, (ph) and he wrote, I'm gonna cry, he wrote, "For Stevie, my friend and teacher." And that describes Oscar better than any other way I can describe him. He understood, that he, as you know, in "King and I", he said, "By your pupils, you are taught." And then, um, Milton Babbit, and then, my collaborators, like Arthur, Lawrence, taught me a lot, (ph)and Burt Shevelove, and Hal Prince, so teaching to me is, it's a necessity. I couldn't live without it.

Adam Guettel Well, when I played you my music for the first time, when I was 14, um, you know, I came in all puffed up, thinking I'd be reigned with compliments and things, and I think it was right here, and, uh, um, I played you my things, and you had some very , um, direct things to say, and I, and I left, uh, uh, crestfallen of course, and, uh, and you wrote me a letter that said, um, I didn't mean to be not very encouraging, I mean, uh, to be constructive, and that's the best form of encouragement.

Stephen Sondeheim Mm-hmm.

Adam Guettel That was very direct, and a very kind letter, and very much in the spirit of teaching, and that's, that's who you are to me.

Stephen Sondeheim Oh, well, that's nice, but you know, that's a direct reflection of that afternoon, I've told the story 5000 times, about going over to Oscar's, having written this school show and, and, I gave it to him cuz I thought he'd wanna produce it on Broadway and I waited overnight, and I just knew that when I, just like you, that went over there, he'd say, "Steve, you're going to be the first 15 year old to have a, and, Dick and I are so proud to present this, and he said, uh, I said, you know, "Treat me as if you didn't know me." He said, "Oh, in that case, it's the worst thing I ever read." And then, and, but, but, he said exactly to me, what I said to you, which is, "I didn't say it wasn't talented, I said it's no good, and, here, if you wanna know why it's no good..."

Adam Guettel Mm-hmm.

Stephen Sondeheim "...I'll tell ya," and he told me. Yeah. No, I just think teaching, and you know, I get so stimulated by the, by the, students, it's that I just love passing on what Oscar passed onto me. Simple as that.

[music]

a TRANSIENT PICTURES production

for THE DRAMATISTS GUILD FUND GRETCHIN CRYER, president producing committee for the legacy project NANCY FORD CAROL HALL PETER RATRAY JONATHAN REYNOLDS

producers for the sondeheim / guettel video JONATHAN REYNOLDS NANCY FORD

directed by JEREMY LEVINE LANDON VAN SOEST

music by DAVID SHIRE

arranged and recorded by TODD GRIFFIN

media advisor LEONARD MAJZLIN

research and production coordination THE CENTER FOR CREATIVE RESOURCES: VICTOR GOTESMAN NOEL HAYASHI RACHEL ROUTH VANESSA BANTA

archival researchers TINA GRAPENTHIN GINA POLLACK JULIA SIMPSON

archival materials courtesy of "MOOG" BY KEYSTONE SUPPLIED BY HULTON ARCHIVE/GETTY IMAGES PHOTOFEST THE SONDHEIM FAMILY

production assistant MICHELE DELIA

motion graphics by MIKE WECHSLER

color grading by BEGONIA COLOMAR

re-recording mixing by PAUL BERCOVITCH

special thanks to MICHAEL BEVILACQUA, ESQ. STEVE CLAR DRAMATISTS GUILD OF AMERICA RANDOLPH GOODMAN, ESQ. PETER JONES JOANNE TEDESCO

For information, contact: THE DRAMATISTS GUILD FUND 1501 BROADWAY, SUITE 701 NEW YORK, NY 10036 PHONE: [phone] EMAIL: [e-mail]

Copyright 2011 The Dramatists Guild Fund

Adam Guettel Well, when I played you my music for the first time, when I was 14, um, you know, I came in all puffed up, thinking I'd be reigned with compliments and things, and I think it was right here, and, uh, um, I played you my things, and you had some very , um, direct things to say, and I, and I left, uh, uh, crestfallen of course, and, uh, and you wrote me a letter that said, um, I didn't mean to be not very encouraging, I mean, uh, to be constructive, and that's the best form of encouragement.

Stephen Sondeheim Mm-hmm.

Adam Guettel That was very direct, and a very kind letter, and very much in the spirit of teaching, and that's, that's who you are to me.




Updated On: 10/24/14 at 12:54 AM

[brettarnett]

Posted: 10/24/14 at 1:02am

THANK YOU

[brettarnett]

Posted: 10/24/14 at 1:03am

Double post. Updated On: 10/24/14 at 01:03 AM

[adam.peterson44]

Posted: 10/24/14 at 5:34am

Thanks, Eric, for posting the transcripts. That was a very interesting read.

[devonian.t]

Posted: 10/24/14 at 6:06am

Thank you for the tremendous effort! Fascinating stuff!

[themysteriousgrowl]

Posted: 10/24/14 at 7:58am

Marvelous. Thanks so much, Eric

[StageStruckLad]

Posted: 10/24/14 at 9:00am

That was fascinating, thank so much for posting. I thought that was interesting that Sondheim didn't care for Rodgers' music after King and I. The shows may not have been as good, but I think Rodgers wrote some wonderful music for Flower Drum Song, Cinderella and even Sound of Music.

[EricMontreal22]

Posted: 10/24/14 at 12:21pm

I think this is some of the start (I need a life--and thanks guys.) This is dedicated to After8

dam Guettel I'm Adam Guettel, I write for the theater. I write music and lyrics, and today's a great day because I'm in Steve Sondeheim's garden, and I get to ask Steve all about his work today. Uh, and I've got many questions that I've wanted to ask, probably my whole life.

in conversation with ADAM GUETTEL

Mary Rodgers Guettel Adam's mother and daughter of composer Richard Rodgers

Adam Guettel Steve always loomed very large for me, uh, as a writer. By the age of 14, I was about ready to play in some stuff and I arranged, through my mother, uh, with whom Steve was a very close friend, to play in my first batch of music and expected a shower of compliments. Uh, uh, was hoping for that, from Steve, who was my absolute idol and in many ways, still is.

a production of TRANSIENT PICTURES

Adam Guettel And I came away from that experience, sort of crestfallen, cuz I didn't get what I wanted, which was unmitigated compliments.

dramatists guild fund producers JONATHAN REYNOLDS NANCY FORD

Adam Guettel I think I wrote him a letter, which may have been grateful but passive aggressive, and he wrote me a letter in response, "Dear Adam, Thanks for the letter. But I didn't mean to be, quote, not very encouraging. In fact, I hoped I was being quite the reverse. For me, true encouragements consists, not so much of verbaling as a detailed attention. In any event, be assured, I think you're serious, literate, intelligent, and talented, and surprisingly, the last is the least, because it means little without the others. Just keep writing as we all do, or should. With love, Steve. and I wanted to read this because, this is a perfect frame for how Steve has treated me my whole life, and how I think he really is as a human being, which is, unfailingly honest and extraordinarily kind. Uh, he doesn't pull his punches, but he doesn't confuse honesty and anger. He's a good man, as well as being a genius, and I, I, uh, I look forward to, to, talking to him today. I hope we all learn something.

[music]

series conceived by JONATHAN REYNOLDS

STEPHEN SONDEHEIM Hi Adam.

Adam Guettel Hey there.

Stephen Sondeheim Hi, come on sit down.

Adam Guettel It's good to see you. Yeah.

Stephen Sondeheim And you too.

Adam Guettel And that's, Addi?

Stephen Sondeheim I, duh, oh, this is Willie and that's Addi.

Adam Guettel They have very topiary tales.

Stephen Sondeheim Yes well, th, yes, they are topiary dogs, that's what poodles do for a living. Okay, enough. Enough. Okay, out of camera range. Oh, don't give me that, don't give me that look, I can't stand it. Okay.

Adam Guettel My first memory, of you, uh, I think I was maybe three or four and it was during one of, uh, the parties, the Christmas parties that my parents used to have. Um, uh, my mom, Mary Rodgers and you, knew each other from, God, the age of 15 or 16?

Richard Rodgers Mary Rodgers Guettel's father

Stephen Sondeheim Right. Yep. Well, I think we should say that it's Dick Rodgers daughter. Uh, Mary was, was, an apprentice at, uh, West Point Country Playhouse when I was, that's when we got to know each other, when we were 20. How Prince claims that we met each other, uh, he and I, cuz, cuz he was Mary's date, at the opening of "South Pacific" which is when we were, when I, 17. Hal was 19, and your mother was 16, and that is certainly, possibly, possibly true, I don't remember that but it's certainly possibly true, and, uh, um, but I, I, got to know your mother when we were apprentice's at West Point in 1950.

Adam Guettel Mmm. How long have you been here in this house?

Stephen Sondeheim 1960. This is the house that "Gypsy" built. Um, actually what I've done was I went tryin' to find a duplex, I, there were no such things as lofts in those days, and so, you were constantly getting, or I was anyway, complaints from the neighbors about playing late at night, and I used to write, (ph)and I was in a, I was in a 1 room up at 80th street , you know, Brownstone, and, uh, late, after ten o'clock at night, pounding on the ceiling, so I thought I would get a duplex...

Adam Guettel Mm-hmm.

Stephen Sondeheim ...and , if I could fi...cause I was starting to earn money, and, um, I couldn't find one. So, I got a house instead and went into debt for a while and, mortgage and that sort of thing.

Adam Guettel When you, when you first saw this place, did it, (crosstalk)did it feel like a place you could write?

Burt Shevelove

Stephen Sondeheim (crosstalk)Immediately. Immediately. Our friend, Burt Shevelove, uh, the well-known lyric writer and I (ph)wrote for him, and, and, and, is he your godfather?

Adam Guettel He's my brother's godfather.

Stephen Sondeheim Yeah, (crosstalk)okay. And he, he said, if you're gonna get a place that just, go into a place and if it speaks to you...

Adam Guettel Mm-hmm.

Stephen Sondeheim ...then ask the price. Don't ask the price first because then you'll start saying, "Well I can sort of afford it even though it isn't exactly what I want.

Adam Guettel Right.

Stephen Sondeheim And he said that.

Adam Guettel Don't do anything you don't want.

Stephen Sondeheim (cross talk)and, I, I, yeah, I, came in this place right away. I loved it...

Adam Guettel Yeah.

Stephen Sondeheim ...I was the first person to see it, so I got it at a very good price, and, um, and the great thing about it is there's a community gardens in the back. It's the only one left in Manhattan I think, or one of two, which are 20 gardens made into (crosstalk)one huge garden, and it's really very pretty.

Adam Guettel Have you written anything out there, lyric wise?

Stephen Sondeheim Oh yeah, oh yeah, yeah, I used to, I used to hang out on the terrace and write Chimp (ph), Yep I did. Uh, I wrote, I wrote most of Sunday up there.

Adam Guettel Wow.

Stephen Sondeheim The, the lyric of Sunday.

Adam Guettel Oh good. I've got a fun question about that for later.

Stephen Sondeheim Okay.

Adam Guettel Um, where did you grow up?

Stephen Sondeheim Ah, in, in the middle of Manhattan. I have, actually I have, plotted the northern most, eastern most, western most, and southern most places I've lived, in the city, and drawn 'em on a map and if you cut out central park, I've lived my entire life in 20 square blocks. Wanna talk about parochial? It's unbelievable. It's like smaller than Agatha Christie Village, it is tiny, what I've lived in. I've, I, come from an upper middle class family, so it all revolves around between, below, 82nd street and to49th street.

Adam Guettel It's interesting that it's been so, uh, so condensed in the sense of the range of your mind. One wonders if there's kind of ...

Stephen Sondeheim It's also the range of influences. I mean, for example, when you moved to your loft, even though it's in Manhattan, it's a whole other village, as we know, no pun intended. It's a whole other atmosphere.

Adam Guettel Yes.

Stephen Sondeheim I've always been in this one atmosphere.

Adam Guettel Uh-huh. There was some Buck's county in there.

Stephen Sondeheim Oh well, what happened there, was that when my parents got divorced my mother got a house in, in, Doylestown, Pennsylvania, which is where I, uh, met the Hammerstein's, and, um, that was just during the summers, and not very many of them because I left my mother to live with my father when I was 16, and, uh, he had a summer house in Stanford, Connecticut, so, my summers were spent in, between, Bucks county or Doylestown.

Adam Guettel And Oscar just happened to be, um, a close neighbor?

Oscar Hammerstein II

Stephen Sondeheim Well, yeah, yeah, yeah, he was three miles away but there was more to it than that. Um, my mother was a celebrity collector and she knew the Hammerstein's briefly, and, uh, also she was a working woman and, uh, she needed to get me off her hands when, when, they got divorced and, uh, so, uh, Jimmy Hammerstein, uh, Oscar's youngest son, was my age, a year, a year difference, and, um, so we became friends and that's how that, and I think my mother decided to move to Buck's county because of, of the Hammerstein's, and there were other celebrities in the neighborhood though she didn't hang around with them, and um, so that's what happened. I gradually osmosed into the Hammerstein household over a period of five years.

Adam Guettel Were they, um, encouraging, uh, as your interest in music began to grow about music?

Stephen Sondeheim Not particularly, um, no. I, I, I, just wanted to imitate Oscar. I just wanted to do what he did. I, I'd, taken, I think you know this, I'd taken piano lessons, for, when I was six and seven years old, and done my, you know, the, the, nice Jewish boy on the west side gives the recitals at you know, at the, at the, at the piano teacher's house, and um, then I wasn't interested in it very much and, uh, my interest got renewed when, uh, not so much in the piano but in songs, or, in music, uh, when I met Oscar and just wanted to be what he wanted, wha, whatever he was is what I wanted to be. He was a surrogate father. I, I, got along fine with my father, I liked him a lot, but I didn't see him very much because I, he, he had very restricted visiting privileges as a result of the divorce.

Adam Guettel So the energy that began to come out of you for theater, and for music was a product as much of Oscar's humanity as his talent.

Stephen Sondeheim Well, uh, no. As, no, as a result of what he did for a living. I didn't really appreciate the humanity until, I mean, he, he certainly was, when I say a surrogate father, I was re, really, I, I, was closer to the family as a family, cuz I'm an only child and I had no family, ya know, and my mother, father being divorced, both of them working and so, and I spent all my time in, in, boarding schools and in summer camps, uh, when, um, even before the divorce. Um, so it was a family, when I went over there to be part of a family is what happened really.

Adam Guettel Mm-hmm.

Stephen Sondeheim And, and, they were comforting. I did not get along with my mother, and, um, so they were very comforting to me. So, it was really Oscar and Dorothy, his wife, and Jimmy, my best friend, and...

Adam Guettel Yeah.

Stephen Sondeheim But Oscar then thought, wouldn't it be fun if I, and he said, "would you like to come see a show?" and he, he, uh, I remember he took, he took, Jimmy and I went to the same school, George's School, and he, he took us out for the opening of "Carousel" in New Haven, cause it was on a, um, on a spring vacation, and I saw "Oklahoma!" , not the opening but I, and I saw the opening of "South Pacific". I, but, by that time, I was in Cokato.

Adam Guettel (crosstalk)You were in there.

Stephen Sondeheim Yeah I wanted to be in song.

Adam Guettel Yeah.

Stephen Sondeheim Then I, I, retook piano lessons then, when I was in, uh, George's School, which was the Quaker school that I went to in prep school, and I took piano lessons there for two years and gave recitals and then I got tired of that.

Adam Guettel And by the, by the time, you were there already starting to write?

Stephen Sondeheim Oh yeah, yeah, we wrote, wrote a song with two classmates, uh, wrote a show, with two classmates called, "By George", very clever title I think, and uh...